[EN Staff Suggestion] Firing Staff Only with Evidence

Status
Hilo no abierto para más respuestas.
29452
Rule Suggestion: Forbidding Unfair Firing, Must Provide Evidence of Staff Member Violating Rules
Thread layout inspired by Glow's suggestion thread here.​
Throughout my years of playing MiceForce, being apart of the EN+FR staff teams, and running an entire community I have witnessed multiple staff members being fired with little to no direct evidence linking back to them as well as I've been able to fire people without evidence and only for suspicion of breaking rules, which as some of you know was an absolute disaster for both myself and Lostwithdark.

Note to those 6 staff I fired: I've never apologized for my actions since at the time I viewed them as fair and okay, but I wasn't looking at the situation from your eyes. I'm truly, deeply, sorry for firing you without evidence as well as a valid reason. I was fired off of the EN in November for similar reasons (but the situation was much different) so I honestly should have put your guys' potential reactions to the fires in mind. Overall, I'm sorry. If you'd like a more direct apology my discord DMs are open.

Why should this be a rule?
  • Leads to biased fires (ex: if a manager gets into a more personal argument with a staff member)
  • Injustice to the fired staff member(s)
  • Gives manager freedom to remove ANYBODY for the reason "untrustworthy"
  • Loses trust of EN players
  • Gives staff a bad reputation
  • Discourages possible applicants
Now, onto a more personal aspect as to why this rule should be implemented. While I was writing this thread, one of EN's quad-teamers was fired for "being untrustworthy" with NO direct links of leakage to the staff member's name other than word of mouth statements. Although this staff member and I DO know each other in real life, this did not change anything while I was managing EN nor was this staff member leaking information regarding the staff team to me. This staff member was treated the same as everyone else, still warned for the same things everyone else was. I didn't tell anyone except for two current EN staff members that we were friends in real life to avoid Lostwithdark as well as the rest of the team/community thinking I was favoriting this staff member when I truly was not.
My assumption is that this staff member was fired solely due to speculation mainly because we're good friends in real life, which is understandable but still unfair. Screenshots provided by Lostwithdark show no evidence of the staff member leaking, only small potential texts, and comments by myself, players of MiceForce, and the staff member (which I can't disclose).

As I had stated before, I did witness firing unfairly and also fired 6 staff members alongside Lostwithdark unfairly. Both of us called it a "staff clear out" similar to another retired EN Admin's. Here are examples of events that occurred during this time period:

  1. Riots in Force Social over the fires since they WERE unfair.
  2. Anger from both players and now fired staff members.
  3. Fired staff members were not given a reason to their fire other than "untrustworthy"
  4. Little to no questions were answered by current Administration over the fires
  5. Lostwithdark PUBLICLY deemed 6 trustworthy staff members "untrustworthy"
 

+wrath

Retired EN Community Manager
/SUPPORT!


Detailed edit:

I'm glad things are finally, getting addressed. This issue wasn't that big, but after time of it being unaddressed... It completely developed into something truly chaotic. I'm sure you know this, but I'm genuinely glad and appreciate that you decided to be open about this!
 
Last edited:

Glow

Pingless
/support
This has become a bigger issue only more recently, but it's affected the community greatly in the short time it's happened. While managers should have the liberty to deem someone untrustworthy and fire them if needed, it's important that they back up their reason(s) for firing with evidence, or, as we witnessed in Force Social, there'll be some angry people. The evidence doesn't need to be shared with the public, just the person that was fired, and no, "because so and so is untrustworthy" is not a viable response. People should be fired for a good reason. Don't pointlessly anger your players and ex staff members. Angered players and ex staff members will only lead to more chaos. Ex staff members who were fired unjustly will be more compelled to share staff information and talk badly about the staff. Angered players means less staff support. This should be obvious, since it's happening right now.
 
/Support

Every fire deserves FULL explanation with ACTUAL evidence. None of this "I think you're doing this so you're fired" bs. If you think someone is breaking ENs rules, keep a close eye on them, don't just deem them x or y and call it a day. It's a problem that's only going to get worse and worse with no end if something isn't implemented to help prevent this issue.
 

Kumoh

EN Sentinel, MapCrew Dir. FunCorp & Fashion Squad
Sentinel
Map Crew
FunCorp
Fashion Squad
Firing people with no legitimate reason and just assuming they did something wrong is absolutely wrong. Doing this will only make things worse for you and actually this is you inviting them into leaking info because of what you did to them. It’s different if you actually have solid proof about these things but you haven’t shown enough evidence on it for them to actually become fired and that is completely unfair for those who especially worked really hard for their jobs and enjoyed them. This won’t get you any where in life if all you wanna do is assume things about other people and make them look like someone they really aren’t.
 

Bellamy

Retired EN Staff
Damn, /hardcoresupport
I was one of the six that got fired but with no evidence whatsoever, just purely out of suspicion. The feeling I got when I woke up seeing my blue role was gone made me actually stress the fuck out. I talked to lost about it and all she said was that I was deemed untrustworthy. I won’t share the entire story because I do want some to stay private between me and lost.

I’ve been a staff member on and off since 2016. I felt so hurt, that I was fired for no reason, and in all my time as a staff member I have never shared anything with anyone that wasn’t a staff member during those times. I got rehired because i got support from some staff members and most of the players in force social, and that I managed to explain to lost that I would never do such a thing.

I left the team 10 days ago because I legit just felt uncomfortable in the environment. The vibe just felt off to me, I didn’t feel like I could trust anyone nor talk to anyone.

Everyone that got fired was freaking the fuck out, I felt so bad for everyone and I want this to change. We need some change because this just isn’t working anymore. I’m tired of saying the same thing over and over again without getting an answer or a solution. We deserve better. I’m so happy to see so many people involved in this issue as much as I am.

I’m telling you this because I want you to see things from my perspective to get a feeling of how it’s like to expirence that. So I fully support this suggestion. SHOW EVIDENCE!
 

+wrath

Retired EN Community Manager
Firing people with no legitimate reason and just assuming they did something wrong is absolutely wrong. Doing this will only make things worse for you and actually this is you inviting them into leaking info because of what you did to them. It’s different if you actually have solid proof about these things but you haven’t shown enough evidence on it for them to actually become fired and that is completely unfair for those who especially worked really hard for their jobs and enjoyed them. This won’t get you any where in life if all you wanna do is assume things about other people and make them look like someone they really aren’t.
Honestly, I fully support this. I'm genuinely surprised a firing without valid evidence actually even happened, it still blows my mind how people thought that was acceptable. Firing people based on your assumptions is one of the most unprofessional things I've ever witness happening on here, and within the staff team. I was genuinely disappointed and enraged, hearing 6 of my friends being fired based solely on assumptions. I do apologize for acting out irrationally, and I do apologize for the people who've done the same thing I did. Admittedly, looking back on it now... It was quite immature, and a stupid way of trying to settle things. I hope I'm still on good terms with everyone, but please message me if there's any concerns regarding that situation.
Anyways.
I personally would like firing based on a valid and reasonable things. Along with that, if someone acted unprofessionally on other platforms... Please, fire based on concrete evidence. It's easy to forge a screenshot from Discord, but when you have actual good evidence then that's fine by me.
 
If you are fired, then you are fired. That means the community manager doesn't want you in their team. They don't have to show any proof.
Understandable yeah but this can also lead to my first listed reason, biased firing.
 

+wrath

Retired EN Community Manager
If you are fired, then you are fired. That means the community manager doesn't want you in their team. They don't have to show any proof.
I'd be okay with this, if they were based on actually reasonable things. I think people, like yourself too, forget most of this is volunteer work. There's absolutely no reason to abuse powers, regardless if you're a higher-up or not. You can't tell someone "hey man, i dont like you. scramble" and fire them after them continuously working hard for the team. If you give a manager or admin this power, getting to have the final say because they are a higher up... That doesn't sound right to me. It leaves room for biased opinions.
 
You should have never opened this thread
Why? Because you don’t agree with it? Lol, not all EN decisions depend on you, Soulzone. This is for EN management not TR.
 

Soulzone

Developer
Staff Member
Admin
Lua Crew
So what you’re saying is that we can’t share our opinions or suggestions? Is this really the way you want MF to end up? That’s ridiculous Soul.
You know that wasn't what I meant.
I don't want to leak any staff info unless like someone but yeah.

Community managers always have proof if they have to fire someone.
 

+wrath

Retired EN Community Manager
You should have never opened this thread
Personally for me, I feel like it's a completely reasonable thread! Of course, everything I'm saying is only my opinion and I cannot change your mind forcibly. I feel like it opens a really good discussion and debate... Especially, it's dealing with something serious and a lot of people are supporting this.
 
You know that wasn't what I meant.
I don't want to leak any staff info unless like someone but yeah.

Community managers always have proof if they have to fire someone.
Oh sorry for my rude comment, I thought what Bellamy was thinking too. Lostwithdark and I had no evidence of those 6 fires so no, they don’t ALWAYS have proof. That wasn’t a one time thing either considering that JUST happened AGAIN.
 
You know that wasn't what I meant.
I don't want to leak any staff info unless like someone but yeah.

Community managers always have proof if they have to fire someone.
So suspicion is now proof? Thinking someone if breaking the rules is proof?
 

Bellamy

Retired EN Staff
You know that wasn't what I meant.
I don't want to leak any staff info unless like someone but yeah.

Community managers always have proof if they have to fire someone.
Dude, I never got shown ANY evidence of my fire. The only reason I got fired was because I was friends with some ex staff members, I barely even talked to them though. So that’s not valid evidence without the managers actually having PICTURE proof of me leaking stuff. Which I again, never did.
 
Status
Hilo no abierto para más respuestas.
Top
"Dev-TR" theme by Soulzone